Christchurch Central Labour MP Duncan Webb has accused Foreign Minister Winston Peters of going “about as rogue as you can get” over the release of emails relating to the United States led conflict in Iran, while South Island Minister James Meager dismissed the row as “a little bit of a storm in a teacup.”

The pair appeared together on Chris Lynch Media this morning for a wide ranging political discussion that also covered a proposed “no body, no parole” law inspired by the Christchurch family of murdered builder Michael McGrath, Mayor Phil Mauger’s pitch to open up pockets of the residential red zone for housing, Air New Zealand’s latest regional flight cuts, and the standing down of journalist Maiki Sherman from parliamentary press gallery duties.

Has Winston Peters gone rogue?

The first flashpoint was National deputy leader Nicola Willis’s claim that Peters’ failure to tell the Prime Minister his office was releasing Iran related emails to the Herald amounted to a “political game” that threatened the good faith provisions of the coalition agreement.

Meager pushed back on the suggestion Peters had gone off the reservation.

“Winston hasn’t gone rogue. He’s an experienced politician and I’m sure he was just doing what he thought he needed to do under his obligations under the OIA,” he said.

Webb was less generous. He pointed to Peters’ answer in question time, in which the Foreign Minister was asked who was actually in charge of foreign policy.

“He said, I am ultimately responsible for New Zealand’s foreign affairs, which turns the whole idea of the Prime Minister running cabinet on its head,” Webb said.

“Cabinet and the Prime Minister is responsible for everything. If he thinks he’s the king of foreign affairs then that’s about as rogue as you can get.”

Webb said there were clear protocols for releases under the Official Information Act.

“There’s even a provision in the Official Information Act that says if you’re going to release something you can consult with the other person who’s identified in the document. Time and again I get messages from officers like James Meager saying, sorry we’re running a bit late because we’re consulting on this document.”

“Winston Peters didn’t consult with the Prime Minister about releasing these documents. Has he gone rogue? That’s basically the definition of rogue. They consulted with minor officials about it but not his boss. Extraordinary.”

Meager pushed back, saying Webb was mischaracterising what Peters had actually said in Parliament.

“You can go back and look at Hansard and look at what Winston actually said. He said he’s responsible for setting foreign policy along with the Prime Minister and along with cabinet and all the other colleagues.”

When Lynch read out the actual quote (“As the Minister of Foreign Affairs, I am ultimately responsible for determining New Zealand’s foreign policy in consultation with the Prime Minister”), Webb seized on the framing.

“I am ultimately responsible, I’ll chat to other people about it but I get to choose, is not how it works.”

Meager argued the underlying disagreement was, if anything, healthy.

“I actually thought it’s quite good to see two senior leaders behind closed doors actually having a discussion, and that they don’t actually agree on everything. That’s kind of healthy isn’t it. That reflects the fact that we’ve got different parties in coalition.”

Webb wasn’t buying it, suggesting the row pointed to a “pretty much paralysed” government with NZ First and National “at war with each other.”

No body, no parole

Both MPs were asked about Bay of Plenty MP Tom Rutherford’s “no body, no parole” members’ bill, which was drawn from the ballot this week. The bill, partly inspired by the family of murdered Christchurch builder Michael McGrath, would block convicted murderers from parole if they refuse to reveal the location of their victim’s body.

Meager said the Government supported the concept.

“We support it. We support the concept. We strongly support it actually. The idea that the families of victims, particularly of murder victims, should get some closure and some reconciliation with their loved ones is a good one.”

He acknowledged the bill came with complications and would need careful work at select committee.

“Duncan and I have both sat on the justice committee where bills that have purported to amend parole conditions and the parole law have come before us, and they are complex and they are tricky.”

Webb said he was pleased Meager’s response had been measured rather than enthusiastic, and raised the spectre of wrongful convictions in cases where bodies have never been recovered. He cited the David Tamihere case as an example of the kind of scenario the law would need to grapple with, and said other historical cases highlighted the same risk.

“Under this law, even though he didn’t commit the crime, he would have had to wait right up until his conviction was quashed by appeal, you know, 30 odd years later, to get out. That’s a problem,” Webb said.

He warned that any carve out for people who maintained their innocence could backfire.

“If we had a carve out for people who didn’t admit the offence, what we get is more people not admitting the offence, and that’s much worse for victims.”

Webb said his caucus needed to discuss what was best for all victims and their families in the long run.

Red zone, Apollo Projects Stadium and a ‘highly emotive’ debate

The pair also weighed in on Christchurch Mayor Phil Mauger’s suggestion that small pockets of residential red zone land could be opened up for first home buyers, alongside the possible sale of Apollo Projects Stadium and surrounding land to help pay down council debt.

Meager praised Mauger for trying to find ways through the council’s rates and debt pressures, and said the Apollo Projects Stadium proposal in particular had merit.

“The idea of using Apollo for some community facilities but a significant amount of housing is a good one. It’s already a built up area. I think that’s supportive in general.”

He was far more cautious on the red zone, conceding it was outside his lived experience.

“I’m not from Christchurch. I wasn’t around Christchurch at the time where the red zone conditions were put in place. It is a highly emotive issue.”

“I’d approach it very, very cautiously if I was Phil. There were some pretty big steps taken by the government at the time.”

Webb said while the red zone was “large and varied,” he did not see the issue primarily through an engineering lens.

“I don’t think it’s actually an engineering or a flood risk or earthquake problem. I think it’s much more of a social problem.”

“We as a community were pretty traumatised. I wasn’t in the red zone but plenty of my friends and family were, and they lost more than just a house. They lost their connection with their community.”

His instinct, he said, was to leave it alone.

“It’s better to just let that go and just say that is now a public space. Lay it to rest and move on. The economic gains from that don’t warrant revisiting the trauma.”

On Apollo Projects Stadium, Webb was open to selling parts of the site if not needed in the future, but stressed the need for community input.

Air New Zealand cuts and regional connectivity

The conversation turned to Air New Zealand’s third round of domestic cuts, blamed by the airline on high fuel costs, with 70 return flights gone from Nelson and 44 from Tauranga in the next few weeks. The airline says only about 2 percent of passengers are affected.

Meager said he had repeatedly sought assurances from the airline that the cuts were temporary and tied directly to the fuel crisis.

“At every point I’ve sought assurances from Air New Zealand that what they’re doing is responding to the crisis at hand,” he said.

“Every time they’ve done it, I’ve said give me the guarantee, get through this, those services will be back up and running. They’ve said yes, so I’ve got to take their word for it at this stage.”

He said he was alert to the wider regional impact, even if his own electorate of Timaru was unlikely to feel the worst of it.

“One of the downsides of living in Timaru is that we only have two flights in and out a day. One of the upsides is there’s not much more to reduce, so we get through this period relatively unscathed.”

“For Nelson, for parts of Northland that really do rely on those connections, I’ve tried to seek assurances from Air New Zealand every step of the way.”

Webb said the concern that regional New Zealand was being left behind was real, and pointed to the Government’s stake in Air New Zealand as a half owner.

“This is Air New Zealand. It’s half owned by the government. The government’s the largest single shareholder, so there’s a fair bit of influence.”

He said when Labour was in government, it had managed the airline through Covid by lending it money so its freight network could keep operating.

“This is critical infrastructure. As important as our roading network is our air network, so we’ve got to look very carefully, particularly for our far flung regions, making sure people can be connected for business, for family, for education.”

Maiki Sherman standing down

Asked about journalist Maiki Sherman being stood down from press gallery duties after knocking on an MP’s office door for around 10 minutes, Meager said the punishment fit the crime.

“Yep, she did. There’s pretty clear rules in parliament. There’s precedent for this in the past. I think Lloyd Burr got stood down for a few days for doing a pretty similar thing about a decade ago,” he said.

“There are parts of parliament that you just can’t go to, particularly around MPs’ offices.”

Webb declined to second guess the Speaker’s decision.

“I’m not going to disagree with the Speaker of the House. It’s a matter for the Speaker, and if the Speaker decides that’s the case, it’s kind of case closed.”